Category: Daily Living
Went to a store yesterday and they had an inaccessible touch screen. My caregiver was upset about it; said the store needed to do something about letting folks have a paper receipt to write on. I said this is the way the world is going with these screens and we have to ask the store for accessibility. I let the clerk push the credit button for my credit card, and since I use a signature stamp we put an X on the screen. The transaction did go through, but am wondering what others are doing in this situation.
It'll be interesting what others have to say about this. it's getting to the point now where more stores have this than the regular keypads we're used to. we, as a community, really need to start putting our feet down and speaking up about it. And no, I'm not talking about rude whining complaints. I'm just saying, more people need to be made aware of the fact that as of right now, we *cannot* use these, and we have the right not to have to give the store clerks, or anyone else for that matter, our PIN numbers.
for now, I would say, if you have a card with a visa or master card logo on it, I would run it as credit, if you can. that will let you avoid the need for your PIN at cash registers.
I agree with this not being fair to us. As far as a solution, if I'm shopping alone or not with my mom, I use cash.
On inaccessibility in general, it's kind of weird that the private university I go to has an accessible card machine as well as a talking street light, whereas the HEB that is in walking distance from my house uses the touch screen types and has no audio street light.
what it comes down to is the expedience of looking at life based on what is easier for me. If when these things were developed, the manufacturers would require full accessibility be included, this problem could be averted. It might come down to hiring a couple of people for nothing more than their disabilities to test and recommend changes to their products or request that their products be tested by the verious groups that represent a particular disability before selling the product or service. Now it is expensive to replace these machines, so we are stuck getting help. NFC may help with this though. In the meantime, I use cash or credit, never a pin unless having no other choice and I have to ask the clerk to help or my companion to tap the proper button. I don't want anybody to get my pin and unless there was a tactile overlay to use on them, short of using a pair of head phones, I don't think speech would be good as people could hear our choices anyway.
As for doing something about the inaccessibility of card machines (among other things), I also agree that people should be made aware of such issues. I've honestly been thinking about accessibility issues for awhile, but don't know about how to make people aware of it so that changes could start taking place. I do express it to individuals when the topic of disability comes up and during casual conversations, but who would you tell say, about inaccessible card machines, products, and things like that?. I've only spoken to people at a college about having their room number Braille signs covered with printed paper ones, and it turned out that the next time I came back, nothing had been done, although one of the ladies I talked with saw me and said that they were (supposedly) working on it. (I haven't been back their since then, so I don't know if that has changed or not. It would've been a simple matter of moving the paper signs down so that the room numbers would be showing. But as far as inaccessible things at stores or other more generally public places, I've never done that before so wouldn't know where to start with that.
Ideally, that would be a good idea if manufacturers would recruit disabled people to test their products, but disabled people would first need to make them aware that we're here and need the same access to those things. In the case of the card machines, would we have to find out about and contact the manufacturers of the machines themselves, or would we talk with the store manager? I'm honestly asking because I wouldn't be sure who the best person would be to talk with about this issue. *smile*
I would start with the store manager, find out who the manufacturer of the card reader is and then get people, like you and me to send in a recommendation complaining about how inaccessible their touch screen devices are and how you would make it better. You may want to find out who the CEO is and send the letter of complaint and suggestion to him. If you sell your point of view how considering these type of accessibility improvement both helps the image of the company but will make their products easier to use and more desirable to the retailer since the easier they are to use the more transactions can be processed, saving the retailer money on space and employees to process customer check outs.
I agree with Ocean on this. My debet card has the Visa logo, so I always run it as credit. I have been in the unfortunate situation of needing to give my pin to a clerk or shopper's assistant before. I don't like it, but I've done it, figuring they can't do anything with my pin if they don't have my card to go with it. But it is not right, and we should try to create an awareness where we can.
If there could be a federal standard for accessibility, don't enforce it, just grant tax breaks to everyone who uses that standard: the maker of the device, the store who uses it, etc. It then moves to what all businesses love: tax breaks, don't we all? And a relatively straight path to earning one.
It would take a group to put together said standards, not just for us but for all accessibility, and then do what America does best: give the corporates another tax break. It's used all the time as a motivator for very reasonable things, so why not this? They'd be hopping in line just to get the write-off. And who could blame 'em?
I wonder how similar the various machines are. I would say, if they're all relatively the same, we could, as someone suggested earlier, just carry a tactile overlay with us like many of us carry signature guides. that way, we could use these machines without making too much of a fuss. But again, it would only work if they were all more or less the same.
I attempted to see if there were a standard for the touch screen pos terminals just as there now seems to be a standard layout for the ATM machines that are prevalent, and I haven't found anything to shed light on this one way or another. Maybe this is some to contact your national NFB or equivalent organization to get them on board. In the meantime, ask to speak to the manager on duty, make that suggestion, contact the corporate head quarters for the particular chain of retailers, if large enough and request the information on who is the vendor that provides their point of sale terminals in reference to the touch screen card machines. Also, state how that not having a pos terminal inaccessible to the blind, in your case is wrong but that it is also a bad business decission as the blind patrons are more likely to frequent their competition should they make accessibility more of a priority. Once you get the vendor and manufacture information, contact them with the same information. Write the president and request this be added to the regulations for making devices more accessible. just some thoughts. Coordinate with like-minded individuals if possible as there is clout in numbers.
I just usually use change and don't have problems as of yet, but can see the issue, that's tricky though. never used one so can't give you any feedback. and most of what I would suggest is here already.
The tactile overlay idea is one I've thought of, but there isn't a standard for these machines that I'm aware of. I just run things as credit at stores that have these touch screens, but some business owners will listen if you talk to them. A locally owned grocery store franchise here in NY is one example of a business that replaced their touch screen keypad with one that has tactile buttons.
Unfortunatley, tax breaks is what it would take to get businesses to consider doing the right thing. This is because the touch screen technology behind these devices is cheeper, and I think also it looks more modern and cool to the sighted population. So what needs to happen is the government needs to subsidize the purchase of the machines with tactile buttons up front, because a lot of businesses don't want to wait for a tax write off. They're more focused on the here and now. It'll never happen, but one can dream, right?
One thing I feel I should point out. Telling a corporation that blind people would frequent another store, isn't going to effect them. See, the corporation sells their product to the store, not to you, you don't get to pick which credit card scanner you use, just what store you go into. The corporation will probably be smart enough to realize that we don't present a big enough demographic to actually worry about, blind people, even in mass are not really that powerful a group. Then, since they've already sold the credit card machine to the store, they would have absolutely no insentive to put in the bundle of money in research and development that would be required to create a tactile machine. Thus, you'd pretty much just be shouting at a brick wall.
First of all, it is the store that applies the pressure, not you. . Also, the aging population and the very real increase in blindness do to eye disease does make the need to expend the research dollars essential. Finally, with new technologies like POS terminals that can take advantage of new technologies like near field communications, and the new smart card technology will mean that retail establishments will be looking to upgrade and if the retailer sees enough of an advantage to making the purchase from a company that considers the accessible needs of its potential users or if, as happens, a group forms that promotes a standard set of spects, then accessibility will happen. If we followed your logic SL the iPhone and now Android devices wouldn't have been made as accessible as they are. There was no government mandate to do so, nor do such approaches result in any meaningful change in a timely manner and certainly without criticism.
What you do by contacting the corporations involved is to raise awareness to the problem that exists and that it would be easily addressed. It would be inexpensive to create an tactile overlay that could be provided to the retail establishments that can be used by the visually impaired customer. Accessible terminals won't magically appear but as equipment is upgraded or replaced, they will become more and more prevalent. The talking ATM is such an example. Though government regulations required they be brailled, noone addressed the fact that the blind could read the menu items and braille instructions were often, if provided, the only way to let us know what to do and when. Then a forethinking institution started installing ATMs with voice chips and now over half the available ATMs can be accessed by the blind.
But that still doesn't address the fact that the store in question is probably only going to lose one customer. Most stores don't have a high clientell of blind people. Now, that is not to say there aren't other ways to get this done.
First, the example of the IPhone and other accessible phones doesn't work because most people do not have their own personal credit card scanner. I assume you have your own cell phone, I also assume you don't have a credit card scanner. Thus, they are more likely to worry about what the store wants, rather than you, because you don't buy their product. The store, as I said, is probably not worried about losing one customerr because they didn't pay more for a piece of technology.
Now, for the solution. My suggestion would be to wait a couple years, you're gonna have to anyway. They are creating new payment methods, including but not limited to fingerprint recognition and IPhone aps. No longer will you even need to type in a PIN at all. You just run a card over the scanner, without even having to take it out of your wallet or purse, then touch a fingerprint scanner, and your done. Or you just swipe your IPhone over the screen, and it gives it all the information it needs.
The problem that your foaming at the mouth over won't be around much longer. Until then, most scanners I see have push buttons, just push the four buttons for your pin, followed by the ok button. Not really astrophysics or anything. If you do happen to run across a touch screen model, feel secure in the knowledge that you need more than a pin to get into someone's account. You can't just know those four numbers and then hack in.
Think about this, a pin is four numbers with only ten possibilities for each number. Millions of people have pin's, this means that there is a statistic garrantee that more than one person has the same pin. The pin is not the designator of your account, it is the password into the account. The agent behind the counter doesn't know what account is yours out of the billions of other ones around the world. So there's really not much to worry about. Unless you make it a habit of putting your account number, pin, and social security number on public display.
sorry, but I already addressed your post, I know what can be done and what can't. While I'm foaming at the mouth, I know far more about business and technology then you.So don't come in an pretend you know how to sell business and corporations on acdcessibility. What makes you think that you in your 22 years of living are qualified to tell me what I have already said. You obviously don't know what of you speak or you would know that you in part described NFC and smart chip technology. I suggest you learn some manners.
Well, I already learned that it is not considered well mannered to A. assume you know someone else's level of knowledge, and B. to look down your nose at someone else without having any evidence other than what you can read on a profile. I also have the knowledge, or logic skills depending on how you want to look at it, to realize that A. anyone can claim to know something, and B. that anyone can lie and/or withold personal statistics on a profile. Its all well and good to claim that you know more about business and technology than I do, but you've given no more evidence for it than a post that was about as full of evidence as one written by a fourth grader. You may as well have simply said "nanny nanny boo boo" at the end for all the progress you made toward making your point. So while you may be older than me, (a fact i am simply assuming because I can't actually be bothered enough to care about you to the point I would actually waste my time looking at your profile), I can conclude based soully on the evidence given here, that you have the maturity level of a fourth grader.
So, perhaps you could sit back, take a deep breath and compose yourself long enough to refute my evidence a little? Yes, I do realize what I was talking about, I simply didn't name the technology; please explain how that refutes my claim that the technology is being developed? There is even a lab who is working on a chip that one wears in a ring or some other piece of clothing, then passes over the item you wish to buy and it immediately charges it to your account. However, as far as my research can show, that technology has stalled, and probably won't be available for some time.
So, I ask again, just in case your too busy slathering to comprehend the point after only one reading, what do you have that refutes my point that all we need to do is wait a little while, and the trouble will no longer be a problem?
your right, anybody can say anything, it is actions that prove a person's worth. I will gladly leave it up to others to decide which one of us is acting immature and like a fourth grader. My examples are actual products where yours are not. If you don't like me passing on what I know works and to encourage people to get involved so that the next batch of products are accessible, it costs far less to design products with accessibility in mind then to add it, then you have the problem. I believe in the positive approach and selling people, all you seem to do is insult people. There's a guy on a mailing list like you and half the people put him on their ignore lists or just delete his contributions unopened.
now if you still don't get why we should act now then wait, then I am sorry that it is something you don't get.
In the US the Obama administration has passed a law that states manufactors must make things more accessible. Now this issue is simple to solve at least in the US. Even your bank suggest this method and that goes for the sighted as well. If you are not wanting cash back never use your pin number. Use credit. So a blind person simply as to say credit. I do this all the time even if I'm with a sighted friend. I even receive a bit of a cash rebate from my bank when I use credit over my pin.
Here's how I see it. First, simply saying we want something to be more accessible isn't going to work. We all know how well the braille on the ATM idea went, and that was touted as an accessibility success when it came out. They can't even master accurate braille signs, what makes you think they can master a credit card machine? Not even taking into account the fact that just saying you want it more accessible doesn't tell them how you want it to be made accessible. Do you want it to have a voice, so you have to plug in your headphones, wait for it to speak, suffer through it using a voice that is so slow it seems you'll never reach the end of the sentence, then finally enter your PIN and buy what your trying to buy?
Personally, I'd rather have an ap where I can swipe it across and not have to use a PIN at all. That technology is already in the works. its not just an idea, its not something we have to protest, lobby or bargain for, its already being developed.
So lets see, we can protest, bargain and beg for a technology that is going to be obsolete by the time we get it anyway, let alone the fact that it will probably only be used by a limited amount of stores even if it weren't obsolete, or we can wait pretty much the same amount of time, not protest, and have the problem solved for us without it even having to go so far as to involve the government. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'll sit back and let the glory of the free market do its work. I have no problem using credit for the next few years.
Besides, the vast majority of the credit card machines I run into are touch tone, not touch screen. If you can't figure out how to use a touch tone pad to enter a four digit code, you don't need to be using credit cards.
That's my two cents, feel free to ignore me if it is too lax or logical for you.
see that's the difference, nobody is talking about protesting but you. That's part of letting companies know what you want is to give them an idea how this can be accomplished.I hate the world owes me mentality as much as the next guy, but I hate the people who sit back and wait to be given things to. If it wasn't for the hard work of a few who do lend their expertees to making items more accessible and user friendly, it wouldn't get done. Many of these people are blind. So you can either complain about the way it is being done, sit back and do nothing, or get involved and help develop the next accessible device. Somehow I don't think you have the expertees to assist with the latter so this is the end of my dealings with you. Oh, thanks for telling me about technology being in the works that I already mentioned. It is sure nice you know what NFC is and how it works.
i agree with one of the posters. we need to voice our concerns. i too have encountered the same issues. i first casualey suggest to the cashier she or he mentioned it to the managment. then, i go to the manager and voice my concerns. i am not saying it works. but, it is a start. if you realy want to take i t further you might consider e mailing the stores headquarters, even the manafacture of the machine.
if enought of us voice our convcerns perhaps we can start something. hell, if nothing else have we thought about joining the occupy wall street movement? several mom and pop grass root movements have joined. hell its not like we will be missing work! just a thought.
though I think the reference to occupy wall street was more in jest, I wouldn't go that far, but is we don't say something, nobody will know what we need and who will listen. To say, we are to small or insignificant and people won't listen just means you have to do a better job selling your concern.
I meant if we don't say something.
Well it works for me so I don't spend much time trying to we invent the wheel. If I need cash than I have to use my pin, and I really can't see how giving the pin to the clerk puts me at danger unless she or he doesn't hand the card back, and well I'll ask about it, so. Other wise I just say credit and it gets it done and when the next things comes along I'll use that. Now on some things I give thought, but this no.
To each his own and if it works for you, then great. It doesn't hurt to ask for more. I personally almost always use credit unless there is no other choice and in those cases they have have an actual keypad, but some people would rather be independent. It is also possible that the person isn't concerned about the current piece of equipment but the replacement and wants to make sure the new piece is as accessible as they can make it.
it's the aditude of, Oh well. It's not a big deal and there's a way around it that accounts for the reason we still haven't accomplished much. I'll admit, it's more about the point of the whole thing that gets me, rather than the fact that we're not seeing much progress. the point is: Everybody else has the option of credit or debit, as we do, but everyone has the right to keep their PIN private should they choose debit. with these touch screens, we currently do not. and, in some places, such as Canada, you cannot use your debit card as a credit card, so in those particular instances, you have no choice but to disclose your PIN to someone.
@OceanDream, I couldn't have said it any better. If that doesn't explain why, even if you don't make progress, you need to make your concerns known, then I don't know what does. sure, even if I wasn't blind, when given the option, I will never use anything other than credit, but that should my choice, just as my sighted counterpart does. The only place I have seen terminals with a physical keypad were at places where debit was the only option. Most places I frequent are slowly replacing the physical terminals with touch screen devices since that same device can process multiple types of payment, including processing checks, credit and debit cards, and gift cards/certificate, just to name a few possibilities. With the trend toward selfserve checkout terminals still a viable option, it is more critical to make sure that they become accessible. Oh wait, the new technology will make the need for current accessibility improvements irrelavent, but who is to say that if we don't say something now, that the future devices will be accessible. Many apps on both android phones and the iPhone aren't accessible and in both cases access technology is either abailable or integrated into the device. To just assume that the next innovation will be more accessible is just going to lead to disappointment.
@OceanDream: I'm a bit worried re: Canada, particularly since, as I understand it, they're also moving to a chip-and-pin system for their credit cards, are they not?
Having said tht, someone told me that—I think it was Bank of Montreal?—offered a debit card that was also a Visa card, but either they or I could be confused. This is one thing I dread though if my job ever transfers me to Montreal.
I'm not actually sure about that. I haven't lived in Canada for a couple years, although I am Canadian. I'll have to search deeper into that one the next time I'm there.
Hmm... I sure hope the NFC chips that are placed in android phones and hopefully the next apple Iphone will allow us to wave our phone at the turminal and tell us an item has been paid for. I know google, and others hope that the NFC chips do get used for such transactions. My consurn when this comes to light, will bee if the app to do this will have accessibility built in, it would bee neet to just wave my phone at the check out screen and go.
i hate to be a wet blanket but if you can wave your cell phone at a terminal and i'll pay your bills, what's keeping the bad guy from copying the info on my phone and emptying my bank account?
that's where you are careful not to lose your phone, or protect the phone
Probably not even swipe the phone across the screen. There might be a way where you won't even have to take it out of your pocket.
I agree with Turricane. That just seems like too much of a risk.
Same thing that keeps the bad guy from snatching your card and empting your account.
I have delt with these touch screens and I must say it is not conveenint at all. I was filling out a credit card application and needed sited help because the machine used to store the data was one of those damned screens. I hate it but what can I do? Not much because this is how things are "progressing."
With risks come added security measures. Not saying they have, and will all be affective, but it all goes back to the philosophy that we will never get anywhere if we don't put ourselves out there, step out of our little bubbles and take some risks every so often.